Recommended Posts (July 13-19, 2008)

BryBry
edited July 2008 in Forum News and Issues
This thread lists some particularly good posts in the forums from the week of Sunday, July 13, 2008, to Saturday, July 19, 2008. We hope you'll read the others, too, but if you're in a rush, here's how to catch up!

Start Here
If you're new to the forums, welcome! We'd love for you to participate in any discussion you like. Here are some good places for you to dive right in:

Introduce Yourself
It's always fun to hear from new JoCo fans (or old ones who've just gotten around to joining the forums). If you're curious, feel free to read through the old posts in the thread and see what other people have said about themselves, but we're happy for you just to, well, introduce yourself!

Favorite Songs List
Tell us your five favorite JoCo songs and why you like them!

How did you discover JoCo?
The thread title says it all, doesn't it?

The Forum Code of Conduct / FAQ
You'll probably want to read our policy, written by, of, and for the members of the JoCo forums. We're really loose around here, but it'll give you a good idea of how people behave in these parts. (You don't have to read the whole FAQ, but if you have questions, look there first.)

New this week
New threads:

Community Skills, started by LilMarauder to "gather a list of the skills and talents of the various community members so we have a place to look when we make various JoCo-related projects".

A Talk with JoCo, part 6 (Video Footage), started by Encubed. To quote myself, gauche as it is:
A thread with lots of twists and turns, but all interesting: Encubed started it to show off part 6 of "A Talk with JoCo," Jinx's and my five-part interview with Jonathan Coulton. Jinx took the opportunity to post her really perceptive thoughts on the interview. Then Spiff, building on one of Kerrin's posts, came up with the idea of a web app to help people suggest and sponsor song ideas. A great microcosm of what I like to see in the forums -- funny, insightful, and innovative.
To nominate threads to appear in next week's edition, go here (thanks, Mitch).

ETA: In the interest of full disclosure, this thread originally had a poll on it, reading as follows:
Why didn't you do anything to help with last week's Recommended Posts?
  • Actually, I did -- I am Colleenky, Percephene, three08, Jinx, Bry, or MitchO. Or -- nope, I'm one of those six.
  • The "Recommended Posts" idea is kinda (lame / useless / boring / adjectival).
  • Face it, last week's posts weren't all that good.
  • Sure, I helped out two weeks ago! Wait, what, you mean we had another one?
  • I don't care about newbies or the forum community. (Sorry).
As I indicate below, this was intended to be inflammatory enough to get responses, because I'm too mean-spirited to go on with this charade of out-and-out asking nicely. ;)

Comments

  • srysly though. I was hoping for an easier system of nomination. something like just commenting "I recommend this post" or something.
  • Oops, left out "can't figure out the system" in the poll.

    Agree the wiki isn't the easiest to use (compared to commenting as Rob suggests, for instance), but it definitely saved me time compiling. I'm open to suggestions -- perhaps a less "pretty" but easier to navigate wiki setup?
  • Can I just say that I think this poll gives a very bad impression to new comers. It comes across as very aggressive.
  • Yeah, I'm one of the "can't figure out the system" guys/gals. Poll upset me a bit that it portrayed me as a bad guy. And I'm useless at recommendations...
  • I agree with Kerrin. The weekly summary is a perfectly good idea, and I'm all for the people who are motivated by it being the ones who participate in it. But if I don't participate, that doesn't mean that I hate newbies or that I think the idea is lame/useless/boring. I'm just not interested in it enough to do the work.
  • To be honest this last week has been really busy for me. Was the last week of school and I just didn't have time to think which posts were the best ones. I find it hard at the best of time to nominate. I would have gone and supported but as I say I ran out of time this week, didn't get around to it on my things to do list (note list is not physical just mental so thins get forgotten and remembered at random times). Sorry for making the total votes not fit with the votes in cateories but i voted for the option that isn't there which was a more fitting reason.
  • perhaps a sort of a current list of recommended posts would be more effective - we could use the same system for adding or nominating threads or posts, but then also be able to remove a thread from the listing the same way - with a vote and two supports - when it becomes too old or stops being relevant. that way even if there's a light week there would still be things in the list for new members to start with.
  • I'm an egocentric bitch who doesn't care about anybody but herself.

    And I've never actually ventured over to the wiki because I'm semi-terrified of it.
  • BryBry
    edited July 2008
    Can I just say that I think this poll gives a very bad impression to new comers. It comes across as very aggressive.
    I can't say I wasn't aware of this possibility when I created it, Kerrin, but I intended the choices to be provocative enough that people would feel compelled to "justify" or "defend" or (really what I wanted) explain themselves, and then we might be able to address the concerns somehow. Would any change in ground rules (allowing self-nominations, etc.) help?
  • Double-posting to say: I've relented and removed the poll (though I don't believe in hiding what I, as forum admin, do, and so I've left the text of the poll in place). But I still want to know what will help. Perhaps a poll to ask what would help is in order, but I'd like suggestions first. Is the wiki so intimidating? I'd think the forums are harder to navigate, at least at first.
  • well we had a great system for nominating and voting on songs in several threads. we go with something like that till friday then one person (I nominate mitch0 ;) ) compiles it all into the wiki.
  • BryBry
    edited July 2008
    Hmm. If we do this in-forum, we don't even really need to copy things to the wiki. Either way, someone ends up compiling a lot of things, just one way they're already neatly formatted... I've expressed a willingness not to be the only person who does any compilation, and I can envision the on-forum way turning into a mess, but even so I'd rather have a mess that people actually contribute to than something that people, for whatever reason, seem to find scary and intimidating and so avoid. (Perhaps what we need to do, in the end, is go back to the simple text-based format and skip the pretty wiki VoteTable Percephene's made for us. Thoughts on that?)

    Also, will someone investigate this forum add-on?
  • not necessarily a fear of the wiki, just a preference to not leave the forum to go do it. I'd prefer to not even leave the thread because one comment alone might make me want to nominate a thread but once I've gone on to other things I'll have forgotten all about it. Not to mention the sheer tedium of going to the other site, cutting and pasting then filling in all the blanks. Oops...what was that thread called? back to the forum, cut, back to the site, paste. etc...Heck, i could waste 30 minutes alone trying to come up with a 10 word description or comment. Call it lazy if you like but I mostly read this forum during the day at work, sometimes off my phone even.
  • edited July 2008
    I think the only way you will get mass participation is if you make it a one click vote (is that what the add-on does, it looks like it.)
    The down side is someone will need to write the summary, and they won't know why people voted.

    If you want people to validate why they didn't help, I guess I will...
    Lack of time, I only read very specific threads as it is, due to very limited time. I only read about third of threads, and some of those I only skim for interesting posts.
  • edited July 2008
    I honestly don't think it's a worthwhile idea to highlight posts week-by-week (I voted 'lame' because it was closest to how I feel. I don't think it's lame per se, just unnecessary). There, I said it. I think that people who aren't participating in the forum activities to begin with won't really be interested in looking at a list of recent activities.

    However, a sticky pointing to timeless/classic threads that newbies should check out, maybe even divided into categories like the JoCo primer does for songs (and which the current system does include) but updated every now and then when something significant comes up would be sufficient.

    If someone wants to actively participate in the community they will go out and read the majority of threads, and become part of it.

    If someone is not interested in actively participating in the community or does not have the time to, a weekly recommended posts thread will not make much of a difference. It takes effort to become part of a community and unfortunately, as a result for some people this may not be possible.
  • Even though I want the whole "recommended posts" approach to succeed, I do love the fact that in this thread, people are striving to say what they really think about the topic.

    If it were possible to vote or to nominate within the forums, I think it would be an easier thing. I share Rob's feeling that it's a drag to go over to another place, where there's a lot of detail to tend to, most of which requires you either to remember things verbatim [how does Cali capitalize her name? what was the name of that thread? What's the JoCo blog comment I want to quote? - and so on] or to keep going back and forth, back and forth.

    My fear about using the vote-up, vote-down thing is that even though people might get a good feeling knowing that others liked something they posted, newer folks in particular might get really discouraged or disgusted having their first posts voted down. I mean, I like candor, but some days candid constructive criticism from a bunch of people can be kind of depressing.

    On the other hand, it's also true that I don't feel really good about doing things in the wiki mainly because I'm such a clueless newbie about how to do things there. It's not logical, but I'm afraid I'll break things. So that's something I could learn more about, if I knew an easy way (or at least an accessible way) to do that.

    Does anybody have any suggestions as to how as individuals (or even as a group) we could get better at using the wiki?
  • Does anybody have any suggestions as to how as individuals (or even as a group) we could get better at using the wiki?
    The only way to get better at it is to give it a go. The way I learnt, and I learnt on JoCopedia is by seeing what other people have done and copying it and by experimenting to see what happens if i do certain things. That is one great thing about the preview button it means you can see if what you did works. However, this can be time consuming which is fine for some (me at times) but not others. The only other way is to have a long help page but I don't know how helpful that would be and if it would be better than how I learnt.
  • I keep thinking there should be online courses or something. Or Mitch & Lex & Bry should do a tutorial.
  • Does anybody have any suggestions as to how as individuals (or even as a group) we could get better at using the wiki?

    The only way to get better at it is to give it a go. The way I learnt, and I learnt on JoCopedia is by seeing what other people have done and copying it and by experimenting to see what happens if i do certain things. That is one great thing about the preview button it means you can see if what you did works. However, this can be time consuming which is fine for some (me at times) but not others. The only other way is to have a long help page but I don't know how helpful that would be and if it would be better than how I learnt.
    I learnt the same way, and after a bit it became easy. I'm not sure if everyone has the patience to learn on their own, though.
  • I didn't know anything more about Wikis than the average internet denizen before we started JoCopedia. I just don't get the fear. /shrug
  • Yeah, but you obviously don't have any qualms poking around amongst all the code, right?
  • What code? You don't have to understand code to do basic editing. You press the edit button and you see the text. You don't want to touch code, you just highlight the part that's like a Word document and go to town.

    I'll cop to at least knowing some basic HTML, which helped me understand (somewhat) when I was copying and pasting code pieces to make my version (which I'm proud to say we now use) of the front page. But that's not what we're expecting of the average user.
  • But that's not what we're expecting of the average user.
    It would be nice if it didn't blow up when fed non-ASCII characters. I think one of the factors that intimidates people, beyond needing to learn Yet Another Markup Language, is that you can't just copy and paste arbitrary text.
  • I've got to say I agree with Encubed's thoughts about the idea, I don't know if I feel its necessary, particularly given the huge amount of work it takes to maintain the initiative, but we should definately have a classic threads perma-sticky to point people (I dislike calling them newbies, because we probably also want to encompass casual or irregular visitors or people with time restrictions on their net usage) to areas we feel particularly define the culture of these forums.

    On the wikifear topic, I agree, it can be scary at first, I still remember my first edit on a wiki ever, and that was only because an admin of that wiki encouraged me on irc to do whatever I liked, even editing his own user page. And that admin became a good friend! Wikiskills are going to become increasingly important in this world, workplaces are starting to use them for (among other things) in-house knowledge bases, and also in education (at least one of my papers required us on day two of the course to publish our findings/thoughts on a wiki) so while its scary, its a good thing to learn! Especially for the parents among us, our kids are going to need to learn these kinds of things!

    If anyone has wiki questions or wants their hand-held, feel free to leave messages for me on my talk page, don't worry about mucking anything up, its as easy as an undo button for people to fix it up, and there are sandbox type areas for you to play around in! I'm sure any of the frequent wiki contributors would be happy to help!

    I also have a short wiki presentation and sandbox area set up on another wiki (Uncyclopedia) which is here if you want a bit of a Wikis 101. (Disclaimer: It was a presentation for a paper at tech, it was designed to fit onto a projector screen for a class presentation, so its a bit dumb, but hopefully someone might find it useful.

    Remember, be bold in your edits! Don't worry about stuffing things up! It can always be fixed.
  • All I have to say is, I'm amazed that all of you seem to have self-taught yourself wikilore & wikiskills so easily! I am fired with the desire to emulate all of you. I shall embark on my attempt to get Good At Wikis.....
  • Yay for you jinx! ^_^
  • when you go to the edit page, there's a link all the way to the right from the 'save page' button that says 'editing help'. it opens a new window with a list of most of the basic stuff you'll need. print that out and pin it to the wall next to your computer and you should be able to manage at least basic stuff.
  • Let's take wiki discussion to the appropriate thread unless it's on the subject of the Recommended Posts "initiative".

    I appreciated Encubed's post a lot, and it's exactly the kind of honest reaction that I was hoping to, well, incite when I put the poll up. Look, I'm okay with you guys acting as though my ideas aren't stupid most of the time, but for something forum-wide like this I really need to know what people really think. :) I don't know if "Recommended Posts" is a bad idea, but if it is, it's certainly not the first one I've shared on the forums and tried to promote, and it certainly won't be the last. So criticize away.

    That said, I don't think that Encubed accurately characterizes the intent of the recommended-post effort when he limits it to attracting prospective active participants in the community. Certainly that's a nice goal, and if "Recommended Posts" continues, which, y'know, is mostly up to you guys, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that it'd help -- though for that narrow a purpose it probably isn't the single best or most efficient option.

    But there are definitely members of the community who are getting or have gotten crowded out by the tremendous volume of posts, much as I love it. And I know there are people who are forum regulars but don't read every thread, and so they miss things too because they just can't manage to keep up with them. "Recommended Posts" is also an attempt to cater to those groups.

    And, of course, there are, presumably, non-members who don't follow the forums because there's so much stuff they don't know where to start. For these, perhaps the "timeless/classic threads" idea that Encubed suggests would indeed be a better option. (Although more relevant than that might be the "start here" threads.) But even for these, "what's cool in the present, featuring the people that you'll still see around today" might be more useful, in its way, than "this was a fascinating discussion held eight months ago featuring a lot of interesting points made by people whom you'll never see again."

    In short, I don't think that everyone needs to be a forum diehard in order to be a part of the community, and I'd like to make the forum accessible to those who aren't going to be forum diehards, or who might be later on but aren't yet.

    But I'm not terribly interested in shoving the idea down the forum's collective throat, and if people really don't like it (I don't mean "dislike", I mean "don't like) I'll gladly back down. What say you?
  • edited July 2008
    newer folks in particular might get really discouraged or disgusted having their first posts voted down.
    Find a voting system that allows you to stop votes going below zero, or only allows positive votes (If eBay can do it why not us?)
    I think the perfect solution would be a positive vote system that allows for adding of comments, that integrates with the forum posts.
  • Though I'm willing to help on this in any incarnation it eventually takes, I have to admit that it makes visiting the forums seem more like work.
  • edited July 2008
    I have to admit that it makes visiting the forums seem more like work.
    Work?! That wasn't part of the deal! *Flees*

    There, I've now unforgivably spammed a Bry thread again. Sorry.
  • edited July 2008
    the recommended posts idea had a good first run in part because that was a good week for forum posts. the amount and, i hate to say, quality of new content on here varies between weeks, i think. if it starts to get really crazy, like if our hero gets a contract or starts touring with a band, there might more consistently be a lot to flesh it out with, but for now i'd be okay if there aren't threads in every category every week. i mean it's not like we have to bust our chops digging for gold, it's just if one sees something funny/interesting/otherwise meritorious, one can hop over to the wiki and stick it on there.
  • Weekly might just be a bit much. Maybe a monthly basis makes more sense. Some posts wander on and on and on over a period of weeks/months anyway, so I'm not sure how to categorize it. And if a thread from months ago suddenly gets bumped in an interesting way, do we nominate it? It's an old thread, but the good part is new....
  • BryBry
    edited July 2008
    Colleen:
    Though I'm willing to help on this in any incarnation it eventually takes, I have to admit that it makes visiting the forums seem more like work.
    Yeah, I know what you mean. I don't want it to be a drag, and I'd like to find a simpler and friendlier system. [And Jon, you're forgiven. ;) ]

    three08:
    the recommended posts idea had a good first run in part because that was a good week for forum posts. the amount and, i hate to say, quality of new content on here varies between weeks, i think.
    I think that's fair, and I agree that there were more threads I really, really liked that first week than this past week. Actually, I agree with three08's entire comment. I wouldn't mind a briefer Recommended Posts, not at all, if that's what the forum would go for.

    Jmonkee:
    Some posts wander on and on and on over a period of weeks/months anyway, so I'm not sure how to categorize it. And if a thread from months ago suddenly gets bumped in an interesting way, do we nominate it? It's an old thread, but the good part is new....
    That's what the "Ongoing Threads" part is for, was the intent. (That is, there's a section for new threads, and there's "Ongoing Threads" for old threads where interesting things have happened over the last week.) Would a different name for that section be clearer?
  • Would a different name for that section be clearer?
    Either that, or I could pay closer attention. :)
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