[TW: rape] Helping Sea Monkeys with triggers (at karaoke and otherwise), was: JCCC4 Post-Mortem
I'm splitting this discussion off from the JCCC4 Post-Mortem thread. The conversation started here: http://www.jonathancoulton.com/forums/index.php?p=/discussion/comment/83501#Comment_83501
To summarize briefly, the original topic of conversation was that one of the karaoke performances on JCCC4 used the song, "Blurred Lines", which some people in this community find triggering. (As referenced in the original thread, there is much discussion across the Internet about whether or not the song is about rape. I'm preemptively declaring that topic Too Hot for These Forums.)
To repeat what I said in the Post-Mortem thread, I'd like to stipulate a couple of things:
- It is documented that this is a song that many people find triggering.
- I do not believe it was the intent of the karaoke singer to hurt or offend anyone.
A few people in the previous thread had valuable suggestions about how we can avoid incidents like this in the future, and I'd like to pursue that topic a little further. I'll leave it to them to re-post as they wish.
I should also say that I post this with some trepidation -- I think there's value in figuring out how we can function as a community where people have different perspectives and find different things hurtful, but in so doing, I'm opening up a thread about a sensitive subject where people with different perspectives have the opportunity to post things others might find hurtful. Please be cognizant of others' feelings. Remember, I brought this thread into the world, and I can take it out.
-- your friendly forum mod
ETA: It's been brought to my attention that the title I originally, and hastily, chose for this thread had the potential to exacerbate matters. My apologies. I am very aware of how ignorant I am in discussions of this nature. I do appreciate very much my being informed of my blundering, and I hope every one of you will feel comfortable telling me when I am crossing any sort of line.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Pros: It's an easy and common-sense approach. It doesn't depend on anybody going through the thousands of songs on the list to decide which ones to exclude. It's also not "censoring" anything. It also ties right to the code of conduct for both "be excellent to each other" and "don't harass others."
Cons: It relies on some level of trust that everybody involved is going to do their best (although that may also be a pro). It also means that whoever is making the call may make a choice that still inadvertently causes problems ... although I think that would be the case no matter who was making those calls.
Maybe it might be worth adding a line to the code of conduct that it also applies to any material performed on the cruise, to shadow cruise events, etc. Not just to the standing-around-talking side of things.
Now that it has been discussed, I know that someone specifically reacts to that song, it is easy to avoid, but it would never have occurred to me otherwise. Nor would other songs that were originally listed. Why? because that is not my frame of reference and it is not how I interpret the songs so there is not a way for me to anticipate that it would be triggering.
Specifically mentioned by the OP were: Brown Sugar, Father Figure, Young Girl, and Don't Stand So Close To Me. I don't know all those songs well, but some of them are very popular and common and catchy, despite their questionable lyrics. I would not publicly call someone out for singing "don't stand so close to me", because it would never occur to me that it would be a trigger.
It comes down to how people are interpreting the songs, and you are slyly calling those who do not interpret the music in the same way as callous, unempathetic people. I really like some of Kanye West's music. Some of it can be very offensive, but also very thoughtful.
I get that it's hard to know EVERY SINGLE SONG that might be a trigger, but it takes, like, the barest touch of empathy to think "mmmaaaybe this song isn't a great choice? This one I want to sing at karaoke, and therefore ostensibly know all the words to?" And you don't even need empathy to figure out how to navigate this specific situation because a person said VERY CLEARLY "This song is harming, can we not do this one any more?"
Nobody is trying to censor anyone. Feel free to sing Blurred Lines around the dinner table with your kids instead of saying grace or whatever, I give ZERO craps. And I TOTALLY understand the fear of inadvertently offending people, which is why we've discussed perhaps culling songs people have said are an issue (not MAY be an issue to someone, ARE ACTIVELY AN ISSUE TO AN ACTUAL NAMED PERSON.) The beginnings of this discussion were not a philosophical debate on inappropriate songs, it was my friend, an actual human being and survivor of assault, asking that we rethink the songs that are explicitly about sexual assault.
We implement a user defined blacklist for karaoke.
-Utilize the JCCC website and accounts for anonymous submissions.
-Draw attention to this process in an announcement email and other social media after the karaoke list is released.
-Heavy emphasis on the purpose of the blacklist. Blacklisted songs should be identified to prevent personal triggers and avoid widespread controversy. They should NOT be identified as "I don't like this song" or "I personally find this song offensive". Honor system for proper use of blacklist submissions.
-Blacklisted songs are not called for karaoke events. Minimize (preferably none) attention drawn to the blacklist's existence while on board. Blacklist is not public at any time.
Pros
-Spreads responsibility throughout the community.
-Objective list rather than subjective interpretations.
-Safe anonymous environment for those impacted by the matter.
-Steps taken to avoid general scrutiny.
Cons
-More work than other suggestions.
-Additional work for Home Office.
-Vulnerable to trolls and misuse.
And i do enjoy listening to music that is 'offensive', and the line between offensive and triggering could be faint to non-existent. JoCo, P&S and others have many songs that could be considered triggering to different events, but as much as I am sorry and feel terribly for others' pain, it isn't inherently bad and by requesting that we are constantly second-guessing if someone somewhere could feel pain from a song, it would dramatically change the type of entertainment that is provided on the cruise. S
"rape me" by nirvana is easy to tell, it has the offending word in the title, but Sweet Caroline, in the mind of someone who has experienced a traumatic event, does not explicitly convey consent, so it could be triggering. Or Sugar Sugar. I'm on Fire by Springsteen. Many songs about love or sex could be interpreted poorly.
@thalandor46, I think that's a great way to defuse this situation (Your suggestion a few posts back.)
But it wasn't just that song requested to be removed.
Might I suggest that if they do not want to allow any public disagreement, they should bring the issue to the home office directly, instead of calling out the singer on facebook.
songs they find offensive or upsetting, and make sure they're off the
list. Enormous swaths of popular music are offensive on some level. Even
more may be "triggering" if they are tied to some specific event in
someone's mind.
Real talk, though... how many songs do you think, realistically, this would cull? And how badly would it limit your ability to have fun if nobody ever did "Rape Me" again at Karaoke? I mean this as a serious question.
Has this actually happened? because all I've seen is people asking other people to be thoughtful, and that is not the same thing by any stretch of the imagination.
That singer may have taken it exceptionally well. But many may not have. Some could have been so humiliated and embarrassed that they leave the group. Never cruise with us again. Is that appropriate either? I don't think so. A private word does a far lot more good than publicly calling people out. If they didn't know the person, a private word to the HO would have taken care of it. I would have thought anyone would recognize how emotionally cruel and damaging such actions had the potential of creating.
ETA: Why can we not get straight that this is not a "slippery slope" argument? We're talking about culling a handful of songs and acting like this is going to RUIN EVERYTHING ABOUT JCCC FOREVER. Can we all just take a breath here?
What people have said (me included) is that launching into a debate about whether a song should be considered offensive or triggery after a person specifically said they were triggered by it comes off as insensitive.
Note that I did not say the people who did so were insensitive. This is because I follow the wisdom of Jay Smooth. (But substitute "that sounded insensitive" for "that sounded racist.")
Back to my original point about making sure everyone knows the Code of Conduct applies to all material performed on karaoke and elsewhere: The Code of Conduct specifically says no calling slurs about race, gender or sexuality. "Blurred Lines" repeatedly calls women "bitches."
would cull? And how badly would it limit your ability to have fun if
nobody ever did "Rape Me" again at Karaoke? I mean this as a serious
question."
I don't care about rape me either, I again agree that is an obvious one. But Don't stand so close to me and young girl and who knows how many others are interpreted as to be about rape?
I usually sing "everyone's a little bit racist" from Avenue Q at karaoke. Clearly in this group, I could never do that. I won't probably ever sign up for karaoke again, because if I was called out like the original singer was, I would not have taken it as well likely. Maybe publicly I would have, but privately I would be sobbing and terrified to interact with monkeys again, thinking they were all judging me and thinking I was a shitty person and every time I didn't get to do anytjing or didn't get called for something or got inadvertently left out of something, I would be convinced it was because they all felt I was a terrible person and are doing it on purpose. Hell, I'm afraid to interact with a bunch of people now because of that fear, but now that I'm there, I might as well be there, because there is no escape from the judgment anyway.
We are just using it as an example that even if you take this song out, there are many ways of interpreting different songs and there is no good way to predict all reactions.
It is being declared hurtful because people are not wanting to plunge down this road head first without thinking about it from all angles. You ban one song because it is a trigger, fine, great. They also said all songs about rape are triggers, while listing songs that are not objectively about rape. Which then begs the question, can we comply with this request and how do we comply? Should we comply, since it is not an objective observation? Should we instead find ways to warn people about the songs being sung instead of straight out culling a portion of the song library? How will it be handled in the future if someone says something is a trigger? What if they say the trigger was done on purpose? How can we define that? Especially with music that isn't objectively hurtful? Is it appropriate to single people out for perceived wrongs on facebook/this forum? Should people be going to THO instead, to protect both sides? How much offensiveness are people willing to tolerate? I will also be honest that I love "a lapdance is better"- I know all the lyrics and though they are incredibly offensive, they are hilarious and I would have expected monkeys to be the type of people who could appreciate that kind of humor. Clearly that is wrong, but it is so obviously satire, I would have thought people would also find it hilarious.
performance. Ned's dancing to your performance completely ruined that
reaction, frankly. Now when I hear the music, I giggle, because I
remember how non-serious that situation was.
I also met you the next morning when you set up your PS3 for us all to play in the Game Room and realized the facade you portrayed was all schlock. You are a really, really nice guy! And you putting this thread in place is a continuation of the set of actions that show what a really nice guy you are. Your previous explanation of the choice of this song being technically hard to perform rang true for me.
I think we've reached the point where this board is dissecting an issue until it no longer resembles the original situation
description. Are some songs tacky? Heck yeah! Does your choice of song mean I can't walk off the dance floor? Didn't seem to stop me.
And for those with triggers... walk. Turn off the news. CHOOSE to remove yourself from the situation, and remember you have the right to choose to remove yourself from the situation.
/gotta go get groceries now
Having the song announced means those of us with triggers can choose not to be present and should be the easiest to implement.
I do think you have hit on some of the underlying issues though, one of which perhaps unintentionally. No one's trauma and issues should be more important than another person's. Many of the people here have social issues and being called out in that way should have been just as unacceptable - moreso because it was done on purpose. Someone sang a popular pop song at karaoke that a person (who wasn't there at the time) said would have greatly upset her. In response, she calls that person out in front of a group of 500+ people about how they would have given her a panic attack if she had been there. He says he has felt very bad about causing this person pain - except he didn't - she wasn't even there.
And the more obvious one is the trust issue - that's probably where I have the biggest concern. I do NOT have that sort of blind trust in this group. I have seen people here behave just like any other social group with popular kids and weirdos and everything between. I've experienced things that come just short of bullying. That has seriously scarred and disillusioned my innate trust in this group as a whole. I still love most monkeys, but I do not trust they are all going to be kind to me. I expect the cool kids to rule the roost and hurt anyone who, in their mind, no matter how true it is or not, threatens their position in the group. And I feel it is disingenuous to pretend we are a group outside of those group dynamics because I know I was hurt by that assumption - other people have been and will be in the future too. Additionally, I've been online for far too long with far too many munchausen's by internet and drama queens (not saying the original person is, or anyone else necessarily - just that I've been burned by too many people who pull some pretty horrific stunts to get their way to innately trust.)
I personally think the list of songs should be announced at the beginning of the event. If someone wants to leave, that gives them time. If someone is going to sing, that gives them time to prepare mentally.
Either way I can't imagine wanting to participate in karaoke unless it is live band ever again with this group. I would be terrified of the potential for something like this to happen. Not that it matters, as in 2 years I've still never gotten to do it. *chuckle* I doubt that would ever change.
None of you know me well enough to know how much I care for people, and this discussion completely put me off of the whole group at this point. I feel sad that I ever said anything at all about the matter