What I learned from Jonathan Coulton about songwriting ... and monkeys

edited July 2009 in JoCo Music
Folks who follow me on Twitter know that yesterday, I had the great pleasure of talking with JC for over an hour about music stuff. There was a little drama involved when at first, we couldn't connect on Skype, and again when I discovered that Call Graph didn't record the call - despite much testing beforehand. (Argh!) So, I did the next best thing. I wrote down everything I could remember and posted it on my LiveJournal blog. Enjoy. :-)

P.S. I put this in the Joco Music category, because, well, it's about his music. Does that seem appropriate?

ETA: BTW, JC said to say hi to everybody here. :-)

Comments

  • Great stuff! Too bad about the recording, but I guess you can use it as an excuse for another interview somewhere down the road. :) I was glad to hear him comment about his old songs eventually coming out. My guess is they're probably better than he's letting on.
  • edited July 2009
    Thanks! The way he described it, it's like reading your old diaries from when you were a teenager. Everything was so IMPORTANT and SPECIAL, and when you look back, it all seems kinda silly and overwrought, y'know? When he said that the songs would probably come out eventually, it was more like surrendering to the inevitable. I didn't get the impression that there was any plan to do so.
  • edited July 2009
    Wow! Thanks a lot Colleen, that was some great stuff. When I was first discovering JoCo and going through the repretiore, I was pretty sure it sounded like he really knew what he was doing with all the theory and chords (certainly more than the standard I, IV, V) and its cool to hear that he really is a theory-head (which I mean in the best possible way!). I've done the same sort of deconstructions with classical music that I like, so I kinda understand the thought process. Also, glad to see he likes the Bach Cello Suite! I think the question about writing with a chord instrument (guitar/piano) is also interesting, because it's not something I'm as fluent with, and I think my process tends to be a bit different.

    ETA: I've also come to the same conclusion that he did: namely, there's only so much musical material you have to work with, and the trick is finding new and interesting ways to combine it.
  • edited July 2009
    I thought I remembered awryone discussing those old songs, and their possible release... The discussion is here. It sounds like he's got them, he just needs to secure Jonathan's okay to release them. Or maybe he'll just get drunk some night and decide to post them here no matter what JoCo thinks. :)
  • Or maybe JoCo wants to redo them a bit for a proper release. Just a thought.

    Thanks for posting that Colleenky, as an aspiring songwriter I found that very interesting. You asked about chordal instruments for songwriting, and I do think that it does help - I can't muck around and improvise multipart things because the only semi-chordal instrument I've got is the viol, which can only do a limited selection of double stops. As a result, I'm far more confident (and competent) as a simple tune composer.

    Although I am going to have a go at learning the lute, so maybe that'll help.
  • Awesome! Music-geekery was the part I most regretted being too ignorant to ask JoCo about when Jinx and I did that three-hour interview last year, and I'm really thankful Colleen, who knows a little something about this stuff, has covered this so well. Great job!
  • edited July 2009
    Bry, I owe you a debt of gratitude for prompting me to do this. Thank you! I'm so glad that I did, and not just as a fan, but as a musician. It was a wonderful discussion that genuinely helped illuminate a process which is essentially a black box to me.

    I tell ya, it's been a banner year for this fangirl. I couldn't ask for anything more. :-)
  • Thanks for that Collen. That was great. Too bad about the audio, but these things happen. I'm glad Jon pointed out to you that it's happened to him too.
    Two things I thought were funny: the question about, what's he doing with his thumb and him having to look up what a Walk down was. hehe.
    In my experience you can generaly spot self taught guitarists by that thumb. Guitar teachers emphasize proper technique to new players and tend to stamp out fretting with the thumb. Look up a Richie Havens video sometime, I swear that guy can fret at least three strings over the top of the neck with his thumb. (btw...I kid you not, as I was typing this a Richie Havens song started playing on Pandora...hmmm)
  • Great question about the thumb. I think I got what he meant.

    Also, Stravinsky's Rite of Spring goes into that weird meter, right? And it caused a riot when it premiered?
  • edited July 2009
    Is there anything wrong or inefficient about using the thumb, then? Or is it just one of those things arbitrarily decreed by guitar teachers, much as a typing finger might complain that I'm not using the right fingers to type? (Okay, maybe I'd type faster if I did use the right fingers. I could understand said typing reacher's insistence that I use my pinky finger, as more fingers ought to be more efficient... so why not also use the thumb to play guitar?)
  • I think it's considered a bad habit that one should avoid establishing, since some things (barre chords come especially to mind) are really hard when the thumb is being used to hold down strings. For the record, I don't assign much weight to that argument. I don't know any fingerings involving the thumb, in addition to which I have a certain chicken/egg problem: I have no calluses on my thumb, which means I don't play with my thumb, which means that I have no calluses on my thumb...

    Maybe it's the fact that playing with the thumb works best when you have exceptionally large hands, and many teachers tend to discourage the use of techniques they can't demonstrate themselves. Sour grapes?
  • Awesome interview, I really enjoyed it and am jealous that you got to do it, Colleen.
  • I don't want to say there is anything "wrong" with it, (especially since I do it too). I personally think it depends on the type of music your playing, but I know at times it can be a hinderance to more efficient and accurate playing.
    For instance, newbies often have a problem fretting cleanly. The tend to fret with their finger pads rather then their finger tips which causes the fingers to brush the other strings damping them or making them buzz, etc. This happens because the neck of the guitar is in the palm. One needs to put the thumb behind the neck and curl the wrist farther around which allows you to press down with the fingertips.
    A teacher would say, do that all the time and you'll never have a problem but someone teaching themselves would find their own solutions, probably using this "correct" technique only when they need to. But the thing is, a teacher is trying to give you techniques that work in all instances. If your teaching yourself, you have to be motivated to persevere to find your own way, otherwise you'll set it aside because it's too hard.
  • edited July 2009
    Thanks for the nice comments, folks. :-)
    If your teaching yourself, you have to be motivated to persevere to find your own way, otherwise you'll set it aside because it's too hard.
    Amen to that! I was completely overwhelmed by it last summer.
  • edited July 2009
    I mentioned the thick arrangement of his newest song, Blue Sunny Day, and noted that some fans felt it was overproduced.
    For the record, I was one of those fans who initially thought that BSD seemed overproduced, but I fully retract that statement now. It was only the unusual juxtaposition of having gotten used to the spare live version before hearing the studio version that made the studio version seem overdone in comparison. I think the studio version is muy bueno now. :)
  • I remember someone said that they hated the midi piano or something, because it sounded fake. I guess they threw me off as well until I found out someplace that JoCo played them himself, so they weren't sampled Midis. I guess it was a keyboard-USB thingy.
  • edited July 2009
    Oh dear... no, no, no. I'm pretty sure I didn't say I hated it (cause I don't). Just that they sounded a bit canned. I wasn't even sure if it was the sound of the piano or just the accompaniment pattern. It in no way diminishes my love for that song or the arrangement! Actually, I was really glad to see an arrangement with piano at all. For me, it was just part of that deconstruction process, of trying to understand how he constructed it. I'm really sorry of I came off sounding like I hated it! Maybe I should use more emphatic (Joe-style) smileys! ;'))))))))))))
  • It was probably my faulty memory. Point is, they did sound fake. Still do. I mean, obviously, he didn't put a mic up to a real grand piano. It was a keyboard, so they sound canned.
  • Colleen, you -totally- have me beat in the fanboy department ;)
  • Very nice and interesting interview. Nice to learn more about JoCo's way of songwriting and his view on music and everything.
  • @M_pony Thanks? I'm not entirely sure that's a competition I want to win. ;-)
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